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Old May 13th, 2022 #1
Ray Allan
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Default Supermassive black hole at Milky Way's center photographed for first time


https://www.space.com/milky-way-mons...irst-image-eht
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Old May 14th, 2022 #2
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It is not possible to photograph a black hole.
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Old May 15th, 2022 #3
Nikola Bijeliti
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Originally Posted by joeylowsac View Post
It is not possible to photograph a black hole.
You photograph the matter surrounding the black hole. The black hole is the empty space in the middle.
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Old May 16th, 2022 #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Bijeliti View Post
You photograph the matter surrounding the black hole. The black hole is the empty space in the middle.
They're not photographing anything. Visible light is not part of the data from which that image was created. They have radio dishes all around the planet pointed at Sgr A*. The radio emissions (presumably matter ejected from the accretion disc) are what the artwork below represents. Nobody has actually seen the accretion disc any more than we can see the black hole. It is expected that the accretion disc emits visible light but our view is just obscured.



We've long been able to surmise the black hole at the centre of the galaxy based on the stars that orbit it. That was demonstrated in the 90s.

HIGH PROPER-MOTION STARS IN THE VICINITY OF SAGITTARIUS A*: EVIDENCE FOR A SUPERMASSIVE BLACK HOLE AT THE CENTER OF OUR GALAXY - https://ulozto.net/file/BouYipu9w92o...our-galaxy-pdf
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Old May 16th, 2022 #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeylowsac View Post
They're not photographing anything. Visible light is not part of the data from which that image was created. They have radio dishes all around the planet pointed at Sgr A*. The radio emissions (presumably matter ejected from the accretion disc) are what the artwork below represents. Nobody has actually seen the accretion disc any more than we can see the black hole. It is expected that the accretion disc emits visible light but our view is just obscured.



We've long been able to surmise the black hole at the centre of the galaxy based on the stars that orbit it. That was demonstrated in the 90s.

HIGH PROPER-MOTION STARS IN THE VICINITY OF SAGITTARIUS A*: EVIDENCE FOR A SUPERMASSIVE BLACK HOLE AT THE CENTER OF OUR GALAXY - https://ulozto.net/file/BouYipu9w92o...our-galaxy-pdf
Are you saying that that is an artist's rendering and not a photograph?
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Old May 17th, 2022 #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Bijeliti View Post
Are you saying that that is an artist's rendering and not a photograph?
It was imaged in the microwave spectrum (~1mm wavelength), not the visible spectrum, so colors were assigned to create the "photograph". If we were closer to the center of our galaxy we could probably image it in the visible spectrum, or if we constructed laser interferometers much larger than the Earth (maybe using Lagrange points). Maybe in future.
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Old May 17th, 2022 #7
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Send the blacks there.
 
Old May 17th, 2022 #8
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Originally Posted by George Witzgall View Post
It was imaged in the microwave spectrum (~1mm wavelength), not the visible spectrum, so colors were assigned to create the "photograph". If we were closer to the center of our galaxy we could probably image it in the visible spectrum, or if we constructed laser interferometers much larger than the Earth (maybe using Lagrange points). Maybe in future.
So it's basically a false-color photo, like an X-ray.
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Old May 17th, 2022 #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Bijeliti View Post
So it's basically a false-color photo, like an X-ray.
yes.

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Old May 19th, 2022 #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Bijeliti View Post
Are you saying that that is an artist's rendering and not a photograph?
Yes, of course it is. We cannot see into the centre of the galaxy. People often misinterpret discoveries announced in astronomy and astrophysics. For example, the discovery of planets orbiting other stars. Hundreds have been discovered but nobody has ever actually seen one. The faint dimming of the star can be detected by sensitive equipment, when this happens at a regular interval we surmise that it is due to a planet in orbit.
Visible light cannot penetrate all the gasses and dust between us and centre of the galaxy but other types of radiation can and so those are used.
Many spectacular images are published in these fields but it's important to remember that the images often have more in common with art than photography.
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Old May 19th, 2022 #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Bijeliti View Post
Are you saying that that is an artist's rendering and not a photograph?
Some woman did it as far as I recall, I think it was made clear that it was indeed.
 
Old May 19th, 2022 #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeylowsac View Post
Many spectacular images are published in these fields but it's important to remember that the images often have more in common with art than photography.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Bijeliti View Post
Are you saying that that is an artist's rendering and not a photograph?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Cannon View Post
Some woman did it as far as I recall, I think it was made clear that it was indeed.
There is nothing in the article about its being an artist's rendering. This is what the article says:
Quote:
This image of Sagittarius A*, and of the black hole in M87 before it, has been made possible through the magic of a technique known as Very Long Baseline Interferometry, which allows astronomers to combine data from radio telescopes all across the world as though they were one large telescope, effectively making the EHT the largest telescope on Earth.

At the time when the observations were made, the network consisted of eight telescopes (including one, the South Polar Telescope, that was too far south to study M87), although three more have since been added to the network. The eight-telescope configuration means that the EHT's maximum baseline — which is equivalent to a telescope's aperture — for observing Sagittarius A* was 6,650 miles (10,700 kilometers) across.
The image was produced by combining data from eight telescopes. It was not drawn by an artist.
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Old May 20th, 2022 #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Bijeliti View Post
There is nothing in the article about its being an artist's rendering. This is what the article says:The image was produced by combining data from eight telescopes. It was not drawn by an artist.
As I said before, the data from the telescopes (radio telescopes not optical telescopes) is what the image is based on (nobody called it a drawing, I hope). However the electromagnetic radiation that the telescopes are detecting is not in the visible spectrum so depicting the data as something visible is ipso facto not a true facsimile. There are certainly no wavelengths in the range of 570-750 nm (yellow, orange and red) anywhere in the data which could have been show in grayscale. The value of the colours is purely aesthetic, there is no scientific justification. That's art.
There are a few different methods used to construct these images (none involve drawing they are computer models). One method used for Sag A* is described in their paper titled 'Selective Dynamical Imaging of Interferometric Data'. You can get an idea of how subjective it is from the abstract:



If two independent groups were given this same data they would produce different images. As I said, it is more art than photography.

I have uploaded all of the relevant papers in which these discoveries were published. All of the data and full details pertaining to how the discoveries were made and the images constructed is there. There is a lot but definitely worth looking at. - https://ulozto.net/file/KpblAhM1TILU...pe-results-zip
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Old May 20th, 2022 #14
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Originally Posted by joeylowsac View Post
The value of the colours is purely aesthetic, there is no scientific justification. . . .

If two independent groups were given this same data they would produce different images.
The colors would be different because they're not in the visible wavelengths, so they're arbitrarily chosen, but wouldn't the shapes be the same?
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Old May 22nd, 2022 #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Bijeliti View Post
The colors would be different because they're not in the visible wavelengths, so they're arbitrarily chosen, but wouldn't the shapes be the same?
The colour variation represents heat where shorter equals hotter. They could have gone the other way and made red hotter or used other colours (e.g., green, blue, violet), or just used shades of grey. Which ones are used is arbitrary, they are just substituting for non visible wavelengths.
None of the electromagnetic radiation detected by the radio telescopes is in the visible spectrum, not shape, size or colour, nothing that our eyes can see.
First the data is processed to remove as much structural noise as possible and there is a lot. They also have to compensate for significant scattering as well as the rapid motion of source. This is all prior to the imaging process.

For the Sgr A* image they used four different imaging methods (i.e., DIFMAP, eht-imaging, SMILI, THEMIS). These programs make hundreds of visual models based on the processed data.
(The images below are from the 3rd paper)


In the top main panel is shown the representative image of Sgr A* obtained with the EHT from observations on 2017 April 7. This top image is obtained by averaging the bottom four images. On the bottom from left to right, is shown the average images of three prominent ring clusters with different azimuthal structures and a nonring cluster. The height of the colored bar (lower left corner in each panel) represents the relative fraction of images in the Top Sets for each cluster. Note that the THEMIS posterior sample only includes ring images. In each cluster, the image is computed through a weighted average over the descattered reconstructions, including all Top Set images from the three imaging methods (DIFMAP, eht-imaging, and SMILI) and 1024 images randomly selected from descattered posteriors from THEMIS. Images are weighted by the inverse of the total number of Top Set or posterior images used from each pipeline, so that pipelines are represented equally in each image. Note that DIFMAP model images are convolved with a 20 μas beam (represented by the inset circle), while no blurring is applied to the rest of the images.


From left to right (separated by vertical lines), are shown the distributions of Top Set images from the DIFMAP, eht-imaging, and SMILI pipelines and posterior samples from the THEMIS pipeline; each vertical panel is further subdivided into clusters identifying common morphologies recovered by each pipeline. The figure is composed of three horizontal panels separated by horizontal lines. The top panel shows individual images randomly sampled from different clusters. The middle and bottom panels visualize the distributions of reconstructed descattered and on-sky Sgr A* images for each cluster, respectively. In each panel, from top to bottom, are shown the average of each cluster, the distributions of the radial profiles, and the distributions of azimuthal intensity profiles. Note that THEMIS images have only three clusters for each of the descattered and on-sky reconstructions their descattered posterior does not contain a nonring cluster, and their on-sky posteriors do not contain an east PA ring cluster.

It is far more than can be even adequately summarised here but the data collection, processing, image construction, everything is explained in detail in the published work here - https://ulozto.net/file/KpblAhM1TILU...pe-results-zip
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Last edited by joeylowsac; May 24th, 2022 at 11:10 PM.
 
Old May 30th, 2022 #16
Nikola Bijeliti
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Default Could M87* Black Hole Image Be Wrong? Study Recreates Something Else

Here's an interesting video claiming that, when the point of view is changed to a wider-angle view, the resulting image is completely different.

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